Curse

HigherMinion · Nov 28, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Hi all. I am in need of someone's maths skillz to compare heals on two specific bars.

First, assume 8 players in range, spamming skills on recharge or maintaining spirits (which is possible) factoring HSR mods if you really want to be biased. Also assume it's a pug setup (Two keep-alive characters)

Build One:
Heal prayer:6+1 Prot:11+2 Divine:12+1
1.UA
2.Divine Healing
3.Heaven's Delight
4.Seed of Life
5.Deny Hexes
6.Gift of Health
7.Aegis
8.GoLE

vs
Build Two: Rit Lord auto party-healer healer
Spawning:12+1 Resto:12+4
1.Rit Lord
2.MBaS
3.Spirit Light
4.Rejuvenation (20 resto, 20 spawning)
5.Recuperation (20 resto, 20 spawning)
6.Life (20 resto, 20 spawning)
7.Boon of Creation
8.Summon Spirits

It's being discussed (ignored) on PvX by have no utility, hex removal, regen is bad, etc. so I want to get some exact numbers. Discussion can be found here. http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Rt/any_Passive_Spirits

However, I do think it would be better to compare it to a Healer's Boon bar, as that's more likely the role it will play (with a UA with prots or ST rit, maybe even a WoH hybrid monk).

Essence Snow · Nov 28, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

In the UA bar for PvE I would replace gole with aos...since seed is soo op. Also not really sure why aegis is in there vs prot spirit. I would drop prot to 8..up healing prayers...drop aegis...add prot spirit...drop divine healing and gift of health add in patient spirit and dwaynas kiss.

Then depending on the situation...is aos recharging seed? How many foes are hitting targeted ally? A party healing comparison can be found here. The two strongest party heals in the game are situational.....Seed of Life and Feast of Souls...so its very hard to compare them to non-situational heals.

HigherMinion · Nov 28, 2011, 06:14 PM // 18:14

It's hard to make a balanced judgement on SoL as there's nothing to compare against and it's pretty random (attack speeds of foes, how many are hitting, etc.) so best to negate it's effect then consider it later.

Why would you take so many spot heals? You take Aegis because it blocks more damage than you'd heal with a spot heal for less energy, potentially, and SoA should be in there somewhere too, really.

Xenomortis · Nov 28, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

The UA bar is better; it can do more.*
Any healing per second calculations you do, or any healing based calculations, are going to largely be irrelevant, although I suspect will work in the Rit's favour, particularly when it comes to party healing (Seed of Life notwithstanding).
Given how Seed of Life ends up playing out most of the time, it can generally be ignored.

*UA bars in general at least, I would leave Aegis and GoLE as optionals to highlight the flexibility.

HigherMinion · Nov 28, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The UA bar is better; it can do more.*

*UA bars in general at least, I would leave Aegis and GoLE as optionals to highlight the flexibility.

In as much that it has hex removal and prots, but the Rit bar can also contain FoMF/DPS if a res was required. Best used alongside a prot bar anyway, I wouldn't expect the Rit Lord bar to be any good without being sustained without either an imbagon or prots.

Xenomortis · Nov 28, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

In as much that it has hex removal and prots, but the Rit bar can also contain FoMF/DPS if a res was required. Best used alongside a prot bar anyway, I wouldn't expect the Rit Lord bar to be any good without being sustained without either an imbagon or prots.

Its party heals are also much more flexible (the UA's).

HigherMinion · Nov 28, 2011, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Its party heals are also much more flexible (the UA's).

You have an innate party-wide +10hp regen which is rather epic. Then you can dump Life every 10-15 seconds for a stronger party-wide spike heal.

Essence Snow · Nov 28, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I'll agree about too many spot heals..i however do not agree that when considering SoL one should negate it's effect, as a human will run it and will need to take it into consideration for it's use.

Kunder · Nov 28, 2011, 10:27 PM // 22:27

If you want party healing run the AoD lollercoaster. Heals non-party members too

Fact of the matter is that excessive party healing isn't all that useful though. Once you get past the breakpoint where residual damage is being cleared up quickly, the next breakpoint is where the party healing alone is enough to handily counter at least 1 enemy. There's a very large space in between those two points. Both of those builds are more than enough to pass the first breakpoint, not enough to pass the second.

Based on that, Monk bar is somewhat better because Prot is good and because its healing isn't as restricted (life sux ballz if you need it 2 seconds after it expired). Also Seed of Life is amazing if you have any sense of where to put it. If you want my full seal of approval though, run AP instead.

Wenspire · Nov 28, 2011, 11:31 PM // 23:31

There are only two or so places (if we are talking about HM dungeons) that I find party healing really necessary: Kathandrax and Forgewight. Everything else, there really isn't such a big need for if you've filled in a good prot-role in the party.

Lanier · Nov 29, 2011, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I am also in agreement that party healing isn't necessary in most places (even when it is useful, I prefer Healing Burst/LoD).

Also, Aegis is too good not to have mainbarred in any prot monk bar. The only time to drop Aegis is if you know you will not be facing many physicals (which is rarely). Otherwise, it prevents too much damage not to be a permanant fixture on a prot bar.

HigherMinion · Nov 29, 2011, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I am also in agreement that party healing isn't necessary in most places (even when it is useful, I prefer Healing Burst/LoD).

Also, Aegis is too good not to have mainbarred in any prot monk bar. The only time to drop Aegis is if you know you will not be facing many physicals (which is rarely). Otherwise, it prevents too much damage not to be a permanant fixture on a prot bar.

Again, this is basically a buffer bar to alleviate pressure from the prot monk/ele. It means you can be lazy in areas it's necessary. Some parts of high-end Nightfall, the majority of HM dungeons and Urgoz? In Urgoz Recup heals for 6,9k hp over 38 seconds over all. Rejuv heals more.

Xenomortis · Nov 29, 2011, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Ok, here's the thing.
The Rit doesn't give any party healing in a timeframe you might need it in. The regen can do a lot of heavy lifting, but it won't be saving people. It doesn't help you stabilise after several people get nuked and it doesn't make being at under 50% any safer; someone who is low is going to need healing unless they clearly are not in any imminent danger.
You've devoted an entire character to a spot heal/clean and mopping up degen pressure.
A UA can do that too (not quite as well perhaps) but it can do more on top.

Lanier · Nov 29, 2011, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Again, this is basically a buffer bar to alleviate pressure from the prot monk/ele. It means you can be lazy in areas it's necessary. Some parts of high-end Nightfall, the majority of HM dungeons and Urgoz? In Urgoz Recup heals for 6,9k hp over 38 seconds over all. Rejuv heals more.

I was comparing healing burst/LoD to UA, not to the rit options.

Jeydra · Nov 30, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

That UA bar is very much better than the Rit bar. Just compare:

1. Rit bar has more heals, but you are never going to need that many heals in unit time.
2. UA bar has a hard res.
3. UA bar has hex removal.
4. UA bar has Aegis.
5. UA bar has party healing on demand (why would you NOT use Kaolai on a Rit healer ... ?)

It doesn't matter if the maths shows the Rit has more party healing power or whatever. In practice it will not turn out that way. Party healing to people who are at full health does nothing, and party healing not being available on demand is a huge drawback. Just about the only thing the Rit does better is it has condition removal.

Chthon · Dec 03, 2011, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Hi all. I am in need of someone's maths skillz to compare heals on two specific bars.

First, assume 8 players in range, spamming skills on recharge or maintaining spirits (which is possible) factoring HSR mods if you really want to be biased. Also assume it's a pug setup (Two keep-alive characters)

Build One:
Heal prayer:6+1 Prot:11+2 Divine:12+1
1.UA
2.Divine Healing
3.Heaven's Delight
4.Seed of Life
5.Deny Hexes
6.Gift of Health
7.Aegis
8.GoLE

vs
Build Two: Rit Lord auto party-healer healer
Spawning:12+1 Resto:12+4
1.Rit Lord
2.MBaS
3.Spirit Light
4.Rejuvenation (20 resto, 20 spawning)
5.Recuperation (20 resto, 20 spawning)
6.Life (20 resto, 20 spawning)
7.Boon of Creation
8.Summon Spirits

It's being discussed (ignored) on PvX by have no utility, hex removal, regen is bad, etc. so I want to get some exact numbers. Discussion can be found here. http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Rt/any_Passive_Spirits

However, I do think it would be better to compare it to a Healer's Boon bar, as that's more likely the role it will play (with a UA with prots or ST rit, maybe even a WoH hybrid monk).

Sorry it took me so long to get to this thread. Very busy recently. Anywho, onward:

------------------------------------------------

Let's start with the UA build.

I'm not sure what kind of weapon you'd run on a build like this. I'm guessing a staff with 20 HCT(divine)/20 HCT(divine)/20 HSR(all)/20% longer enchants, but I really question the HCT(divine) mods. Anywho, that's the weapon I'll assume.

---

UA knocks the e-regen down to 3 pips, or 1e/sec. Assuming you use GoLE on recharge and always feed Aegis with it, you spend 5e to save 15e, every 31sec, for a net increase of ~0.322580645e/sec, bringing your total available energy to 1.322580645e/sec.
I'm going to consider UA as costing no cast time and no initial energy cost given its maintainable status. GoLE eats (1 + 0.75)/31 =~ 5.64516129% of our available cast time.

---

Now let's talk about the first copy of DH/HD. DH/HD heals for 54hp at rank 13DF (I can't fathom why this build only uses 13DF, but I'll roll with it). I'll assume the UA user has the good sense to hat swap for UA, so that's 63% increased healing, or 88hp/person.

{Interruption: I'm ignoring the DF bonus on the assumption that the caster -- who ought to be safely positioned in the backline -- doesn't really need it, so it's always lost to overhealing.}

Cast time is normally 1sec, but our weapon knocks it down to 0.82sec on average. Recharge is normally 12, but reduced to 10.8sec on average. Total cycle time is 11.62sec on average.

So our heal/sec on DH/HD is 88/11.62 ~= ~7.57314974hp/sec/person.

{Interruption: Calling this "hp/sec/person" is really a little bit dubious as a reflection of what actually happens in game. It's rare to have the whole party in bad shape, so a lot of that is going to be lost to overhealing. However, I'm going to stick with it because: (1) It doesn't distort the comparison between two party-healing builds like it would a comparison between a party-healer and a spot-healer; (2) Situations that do feature an entire party in bad shape, rare as they may be, are the situations when your build matters most; and (3) There's no reason you'd ever run either of these builds except when you're anticipating that party-healing will be needed. Now back to talking about DH/HD.}

Our energy consumption on DH/HD is 5e/11.62sec ~= 0.430292599e/sec. That's leaves us ~0.892288046e/sec for the remaining skills.

Our cast time consumption is (0.82 + 0.75)/11.62 ~= 13.5111876%. So, between GoLE and the first copy of DH/HD, we've used up ~19.1563489% of our available cast time.

---

The second copy of DH/HD is identical to the first. So the totals are now:
~15.1462995hp/sec/person healed;
~0.461995447e/sec remaining e-regen; and
~32.6675365% of our cast time tied up.

---

Now for SoL. This skill is impossible to model well because the number of hits the target takes is going to vary wildly. I'm going to assume the target gets hit once per second and that you have maximum alliance rank, so that's 6 hits. At 13DF that makes heals of 26hp, so 26hp/person/hit * 6hits = 156hp/person healed.

Cycle is 18.25sec.
Heal/sec is ~8.54794521hp/sec/person. Running total is ~23.6942447hp/sec/person
Energy cost is 0.273972603e/sec. E-regen remaining is 0.188022844e/sec.
Cast time consumed is ~5.47945205%. Total cast time consumed so far is ~38.1469886%.

---

Now for Aegis. It's impossible to model the damage_prevented/sec for Aegis without modeling the monsters that are attacking you, and that's waaaay to big of a project. So, I'm not going to add anything to the running total of heal/sec for Aegis, but you should note that Aegis does contribute a potent effect that isn't accounted for in these calculations.

Cycle is 28.64sec.
Heal/sec is incalculable. Leaving the running total at ~23.6942447hp/sec/person.
Energy cost is 0.349162011e/sec. E-regen remaining is negative 0.161139167e/sec. Ut-oh! We'll come back to this in a minute.
Cast time consumed is 8.34497207%. Running total of cast time consumed is 46.4919607%.

---

And now we have a problem. Hitting GoLE, DH, HD, SoL, and Aegis on the recharge uses more energy regen than we have. Starting from 42 energy, we're going to run dry in 4 minutes and change. So, that shouldn't be a problem starting from full energy, but it does bring up difficult questions about how much energy you're going to be regaining between mobs, both on average and at minimum.

Since I'm trying to make a fair comparison between builds, and I don't feel at all comfortable picking any point in energy deficit territory to make a comparison at, I'm going to slow down the casting on DH/HD a little bit to bring the net e-regen to exactly zero. (I'm assuming that SoL and Aegis are both more efficient than DH/HD, so that's the least painful place to take the loss. Also, slowing down Aegis messes up the energy gain from GoLE.) Specifically, we have to slow the recycle on DH/HD to ~14.2970287sec for both copies. That, in turn, is going to drop our total healing/sec down to 20.8581954hp/sec/person.

---

Note that we haven't even gotten around to Gift or Deny Hexes. And we aren't going to. Using either of these skills one time is going to mean not having the energy to use DH/HD/SoL/Aegis one time, and that's only going to hurt your overall heal/sec.
{That gives us a couple of play tips for UA: (1) Casting Deny Hexes an intelligent choice only when a getting rid of that hex is more important than an 88hp party heal. Otherwise it's a luxury for when the healing load is so light you have nothing better to do with your energy. (2) Gift should only be used when you absolutely need the extra bar push on a single target, or you're anticipating an AoE that justifies saving both DH and HD, but need a heal one someone.}

---

Bottom line: Estimated ~21hp/sec/person, throttled badly by energy problems.

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OK, now time to finally move on to the rit.

I'm going to guess the weapon would be a 20/20 resto set.

---

Energy regen is 4 pips or 1.33...e/sec.

---

Assuming a 20% enchanting weapon on swap, Boon of Creation is going to cost us ~0.154320988e/sec and ~4.24382716% of available cast time. I'm going to build the energy refunds into the costs of the spirits going forward from here.

---

Let's start with Recuperation. At 20(!) resto, it gives 4 pips of health regen, or 8hp/sec/person.

We'll assume the spirit always survives it's full lifespan, so a 55sec cycle.

Energy cost is 0.3636...e/sec. Leaves ~0.815375982e/sec e-regen remaining.

Uses up 2.7272...% of available cast time. Running total of ~6.97109989% used up.

---

Now for Rejuvenation.

It's really quite hard to model this thing properly. The total amount healed depends on how often often you cast Summon Spirits and how often the spirit gets a break long enough for natural regeneration to kick in. The energy cost and cast time cost also vary wildly depending upon how long the spirit lives.

My experience running builds like this is that, as a practical matter, the spirit will usually live past its recharge, and sometimes even die of old age. Since the spirit is never down, you could say that everyone has a constant 12hp/sec heal. The spirit doesn't actually have enough life to do that, but we're going to credit it with these phantom heals that don't really happen the same way we credit everything else with the overheals that don't really happen. (Same premise, so hopefully both errors will cancel out.)

{FYI: If you wanted to calculate the heal based on the spirit's hp: Last time I checked, there was a bug with RitLord that caused the Spawning Power not to be increased for purposes of spirit hp totals. THat would mean that Rejuv has 866hp at 20resto/13spawning. (It would have 958hp if the bug was fixed so it was at 20resto/17 spawning. I don't see how you get to 20spawning at all.) Next figure out a way to model how much the spirit gets healed, and how fast it dies, then divide (round_up_to_multiple_of_12(hp+heals))/lifespan. Have fun with that.}

So, I'm going to call it a flat 12/hp/sec/person. Running total is 20hp/sec/person.

I'm going to give it a 14.81 cycle even though that's probably way shorter than its average lifespan in practice. (So these cost estimates are probably way too high.) Using that assumption, we get:
Energy cost of ~0.337609723e/sec. Running total has ~0.477766259e/sec remaining.
Casting time usage of ~10.1282917%. Running total of ~17.0993916% used up.

---

Now for Life.

Let's assume we're pretty much always taking advantage of the faster recharge from RitLord to turn life into a cast-on-demand party heal on a 10.15sec cycle. (To the extent we don't always do this, I'm going to be overstating our costs.)

Healing is 90/10.15 = ~8.86699507hp/sec/person. Running total is ~28.86699507hp/sec/person.
(FYI: Life's heal/sec improves slightly the longer you let it live because the cast time takes up a smaller fraction of the cycle time.)
Energy cost is ~0.492610837e/sec. That puts us in negative territory at negative ~0.0148445789. We'll come back to this in a minute.
Cast time cost is ~14.7783251%. Running total is 31.8777167% used up.

---

Unlike the UA build, which is really out of energy, the RitLord build probably has some energy to spare at this point. I made assumptions about Rejuv's lifespan and always using Life as an on-demand heal that are probably far from accurate. Loosening up either assumption would leave you with some of energy to spare, maybe even quite a bit. I'm not going to bother trying to continue with it though, because (1) I'm lazy; (2) I don't have any better way of estimating how much energy you're really going to have; and (3) the difference in healing is already big enough that the point is made.

---

Bottom line: ~29hp/sec/person, probably more if you stretch out Rejuvenation and Life to free up energy for MBS/Spirit Light.

---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion on the question asked:
So, there you have it in terms of pure heal/sec numbers. The RitLord build blows out the UA build with almost 50% more party healing.

---------------------------------------------------------
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Now I want to turn to another issue that's been raised in this thread: The "responsiveness" of the party heals to things like big AoE. The idea that most people seem to have is that the UA build has a much better rapid response to than the RitLord build. I don't think it's nearly so clear-cut. If anything, it's the opposite.

The controlling factor is how long it's been since you last used your on-demand party heal. I'm going to make comparisons at 5 breakpoints in descending order of time elapsed since the last usage.

Scenario 1: RitLord Optimal Case
In this scenario, the big AoE lands between 17.41 to 20sec after last usage.
UA Build: Takes 0.82sec to get the first 88hp out. Aftercast for 0.75sec. Takes another 0.82 for another 88hp. Grand total is 176hp over 2.39sec.
RitLord build: During that same 2.39 sec, Life dies on its own for 180hp (you could recast Life to get the heal out quickly at 0.75sec, at the cost of nipping off 9 or 18hp from the heal) and R&R heal for 47.8hp. Grand total: 227.hp over 2.39sec.
Advantage RitLord.

Scenario 2: UA Optimal Case
In this scenario, the big AoE lands 10.8sec after you last used the first copy of DH/HD, and the second copy recharges while the first is casting.

Phase 1:
RitLord Build: Takes 0.75sec to cast Life for 90hp heal. R&R heal for 15hp during this 0.75sec. Total healed so far is 105 over 0.75sec.
UA Build: In the middle of casting it's first spell.
Temporary advantage RitLord.
Phase 2:
UA Build: Finishes casting at 0.82sec for 88hp heal.
RitLord Build: R&R heal another 1.4hp while the first DH/HD finishes casting. Total is now 106.4 over 0.82sec. Temporary advantage RitLord.
Phase 3:
UA Build: Stuck in aftercast for 0.75sec. Takes another 0.82 for another 88hp. Grand total is 176hp over 2.39sec.
RitLord Build: R&R heal another 31.4hp over the same time period. Grand total is 137.8hp over 2.39sec.
Advantage UA.
Phase 4: RitLord takes another 1.91sec to catch up to the DH/HD burst though R&R.

Scenario 3: UA Average Case
In this scenario, the big AoE lands at 5.4sec after you last used the first copy of DH/HD, or halfway through the recharge.

Phase 1:
RitLord Build: Have to wait for Life to recharge. 4sec to go. R&R heal 80hp in the meantime. (Might throw MBS or SL or both, but those aren't party heals, so I'm not counting them.)
UA Build: Have to wait for DH/HD to recharge. 5.4sec to go. (Might throw Gift, but that' not a party heal, so I'm not counting it.)
Temporary advantage RitLord.
Phase 2:
RitLord Build: Takes 0.75sec to cast Life for 90hp heal. R&R heal for 15hp during this 0.75sec. Total healed so far is 185 over 4.75sec.
UA Build: Still has to wait another 0.65sec for recharge.
Temporary advantage RitLord.
Phase 3:
UA Build: Waits for the recharge then Takes 0.82sec to get the first 88hp out. Total time is 6.22sec.
RitLord Build: R&R heal another 29.4hp. Total healed so far is 214.4 over 6.22sec. Temporary advantage RitLord.
Phase 4:
UA Build: Stuck in aftercast for 0.75sec. Then takes another 0.82 for another 88hp. Grand total is 176hp over 7.79sec.
RitLord Build: R&R heal another 31.4hp over the same time period. Grand total is 245.8hp over 7.79sec.
Advantage RitLord.

Scenario 4: Global Worst Case
Big AoE hits immediately after using party healing.
UA Build: Has to wait 9.98sec to cast DH/HD. (Might throw Gift, but that' not a party heal, so I'm not counting it.)
RitLord Build: Has to wait 9.4sec to cast. (Might throw MBS or SL or both, but those aren't party heals, so I'm not counting them.)
[Meh. Really this is going to end up behaving like Scenario 3, so I'm not going to bother spelling it out.]

Scenario 5: AoE in the Middle
One copy of DH/HD is recharged, while the other - and Life - are off on long recharge.

Phase 1:
UA Build: Heals for 88hp. Casts in 0.82sec.
RitLord Build: R&R Heal for 16.4hp during the same time period.
Advantage UA.
Phase 2:
Ritlord build takes 3.58sec to catch up via R&R.

As you can probably tell without me pointing it out, RitLord trounces UA if Life has had a long time to build up or if there's any waiting for recharge to roll around; They jockey back and forth if Life is ready to go, but not charged past 10sec; and UA trounces RitLord if Life has to recharge but one half of the DH/HD pair is ready.

{A couple math notes:
I'm a little fuzzy on my game updates. I think I recall that HCT got nerfed to be capped at 1x just like HSR. But maybe it's my imagination. If that's the case, then everything that cares about cast time on DH/HD is going to be a tiny bit off.
I'm not at all sure whether oddball recharge reductions from RitLord get rounded away. I've treated them here as though they don't get rounded away.}

I've got a few more comments on this topic, but I'll save them for another time.

HigherMinion · Dec 03, 2011, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Thanks; this is what I was after. People may still winge about Seed of Life, hex removal and a res skill, but I'll ignore them for now.

ZephyLynx · Dec 03, 2011, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I run a similar build to the Rit Lord one.

Restoration = 11 + 3 + 1 (+ 4) = 19
Spawning = 11 + 1 = 12
Channeling = 8 + 1 = 9

I run Spirit Siphon over Boon of Creation.

- Boon of Creation is the only enchantment and is vulnerable to removal unless someone else uses a cover enchant.
- Boon of Creation gets you back 6 energy per creation, but costs 10 energy to cast (you will need at least 2 spirit casts to get back the energy you spend on BoC).
- Spirit Siphon will give a net gain of 6 energy per use on a spirit with full energy (you will need at least 5 energy to actually cast SS).
- Spirit Siphon can be used on the same spirit every 23 seconds, while this is not useful for Life or possibly Rejuvenation (although usually Rejuv lasts longer), it can be used to get more energy from Recuperation.
- If your party runs with an SoS Rit like a lot of pugs do, there is a high probability of the SoS NOT running Spirit Siphon (most pugs are not that smart). This gives you the ability to steal energy from the SoS at no real cost of your own.

If your party has damage mitigation (prots, weakness, blind, interrupts, knockdowns, snares, de-buffs, armor buffs, etc...), most of the time, you will not need the large AoE healing, especially if you party does not SIT IN AOE. In practical terms, I actually still prefer Healing Burst hybrid. Burst only gets 6.7 - 7.3 health/second/person if used on recharge at a 10-11 divine spec (not even half of the healing power as the other 2 bars), but Burst itself is a heal, and is subject to energy reduction from Selfless Spirit. Furthermore, it is a SINGLE skill, giving you the flexibility to slot and use more prots/cleaning. If you can slot another party heal to another party member (PwK, BotGD, Life, etc...), with damage mitigation, you are good to go.

Wenspire · Dec 04, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Interesting post, Chthon. I don't think it was being argued that the UA build party-healed better. It was more about how much more it could do over the restore build. I'd also like to add that if you are using SeedofLife on someone who is only getting hit once/sec that you are probably using it wrong, imo.

Chthon · Dec 05, 2011, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Interesting post, Chthon. I don't think it was being argued that the UA build party-healed better. It was more about how much more it could do over the restore build.

Hey, I answered OP's question exactly as it was asked. He wanted a heal/sec-to-heal/sec comparison, so I gave him one. I happen to agree with him that this should be the biggest factor in the comparison, though maybe not the only one.

Quote:

I'd also like to add that if you are using SeedofLife on someone who is only getting hit once/sec that you are probably using it wrong, imo.

1. I had to make up a number. Any number I would have chosen is going to be open to criticism. (For example, you're telling me that I didn't give SoL enough weight, while Xeno says, "Given how Seed of Life ends up playing out most of the time, it can generally be ignored.") It's just wildly variable.

2. You don't know how many times I've been in a PUG with my necro safely in the backline and aggro-free and gotten SoL tossed on me in response to a life sac.... As a practical matter, most people just aren't that good at watching the field and finding someone who's actually got monster attention and is going to be keeping it. Most people are exclusively redbarring from the party window and casting SoL on anything that takes a nice drop.

3. Even if you do watch the field and make sure to cast SoL on a guy who's got plenty of monster attention, and looks like he's going to be keeping it, there's no guarantee he'll actually keep it. The player might kite despite the SoL (typical PUG thing to do) or the monsters might decide to break aggro unexpectedly. This doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen, and that affects the average.

4. Remember that we're assuming SoL is being used on the recharge. There's not always a good opportunity for SoL every 20 sec. So you've either got to throw it on someone who's only got attention from one or two monsters, or hold your cast until a better opportunity arises. If you take a bad opportunity on the recharge, that's going to affect the average. If you hold your cast, that's going to affect the overall heal/sec in a similar way by giving you a longer cycle time.

5. It's easy to overestimate the number of times SoL is triggering. Remember that you are seeing 8x as many little blue numbers as there are triggers.